The Bible verses the Qur’an
~We do not serve the same God~
By: Odwar Abiero, Christian Pastor in Africa
Edited by Jack Heckathorne
I believe the Bible rather than the Qur’an because prophets in the Old Testament and apostle’s writings of the New Testament were no different in content even though their writings were not of the same period. Moses wrote five books of the Bible from 1500 BC and the New testament was written from 40-90 AD, but when you read the Bible, despite the differences, the writings remains the same eg: Psalms 119:105,2 Peter 1:19,2 Corinthians 6:17 and Genesis 1:2.
This shows that the prophets and apostles were inspired by the Holy Spirit as the Bible illustrates in the following texts: 2 Peter 1:9,Psalms 119:105,Romans 15:4,John 20:31,1 Corinthians 2:10,11,2 Peter 1:4,Psalms 119:11,1 John 2:14,Matt 4:4,1 Peter 2:2, Matt 22:29,Acts 17:10,11,John 7:17,Luke 11:28 and 1 John 1:7.
This is contrary to the Qur’an, because their apostles and prophets are not well understood as to where and when they got their call and message. Even their life history is not well known and this is why we cannot believe their Qur’an.
The Bible tells the full history of Jesus as we read in the Bible: Psalm 72:12,Isaiah 53:7,John 1:1-14,Isaiah 40:3,Titus 2:13,John 14:1-3,Acts 1:9,Acts 1:10,11,Rev 1:7,John 3:16, but the Qur’an tells differently, that Jesus is Issa which is not true. Even the family of Jesus Christ in the Bible is quite different with that in the the Qur’an. The Qur’an tells that the grandfather of Issa is Amram (Qur’an 66:12) the same Imram is Haroun’s brother which is contradicting.
John 19:25 is where we find the family of Jesus Christ clearly and the family of Jesus’s mother in the book of Mark 6:3-4. How did Haroun become the brother to Jesus’ mother (Mary) if there are1500 years between the birth of Amram, the father of Moses, and Miriam to the birth of Jesus Christ? This is marvelous.
In Numbers 26:59 Mary, Jesus mother, is coming from Jude, not from Amram the son of Levi (Matt 1:1). Jesus is son of David (Mark 10:47, Luke 1:27-32).
In the Bible the gospel was brought to the world by Jesus Christ while the Qur’an 19:33 and 61:6 claims that Issa taught gospel to nobody from nowhere. The Issa of Qur’an has no prophecy telling of his existence in this world. The Bible says that every eye will see Jesus in his second coming Rev 1:7 but the Qur’an says that Issa will appear at Syria in his second coming.
Qur’an 5:82 tells that the great Muslims are the enemy of Jews, why then, in the Qur’an 16:43 they were told that when they don’t understand the Qur’an they should go ask from Jews and Christians those who knew the word before them? Are the Jews and Christians the ones who are to teach the Muslims the Qur’an?
How did Issa, (supposedly Jesus) who is a Jew, manage to become their apostle while the Jews are their great enemy? I think that it might be that Qur’an was copied from the Bible. Nevertheless, the Bible warned us regarding the false prophets in (Ezekiel 13:3,6,7) and Jesus warned us of turning back to other gospels rather than Bible (Galatians 1:6.) Also, Paul warned of the false Jesus Christ who could be preached.
(2 Corinthians 11:4.)
Could I appeal to Muslims to read again the Qur’an and Bible that they may understand who Jesus is. God cannot allow a person to kill or to revenge but to forgive, it is only the devil that kills and takes revenge through people.
“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.” (John 8:44)
“Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.”
(Romans 12:19-21)
Otherwise they may feel that they are saved by GOD, but SATAN has deceived them.
Mr Godfear,
Your statement “You sir, will always try and play down by any means that you can, that Jesus was God. ”
It is my sincere belief that when it comes to religious beliefs,
there is no such thing as ‘playing down ” or to put it bluntly “hypocrisy”.
We Muslims rely on primary proofs and evidence corroborated by secondary sources.Jesus (pbuh ) is one of the mightiest Prophets and a whole surah (Alee Imran ) tells about him and his family.Another surah tells about his mother Mary ( pbuher )It is he who will descend and kill Dajjal (Anti Christ ).He is a messenger not God.
God to us is the Creator–nothing(no creation ) is like Him.He created the billions of galaxies , the iblis,jins, men, animals and He is Self Subsisting and does not need any associate or partners.This is our beliefs and abiding with God’s command “There is no compulsion in religion” we respect your beliefs and it should be a mutual thing.
You see a christian can not go to Iran or Pakistan and have a happy normal life. However a Muslim can come to America and have a wonderful life with freedom and liberty. You know why? Ever asked yourself "Why is America like this?" Because it was setup up on morals and ways of the bible. Show me ONE Islamic nation that is friendly to Christians. Where men and women have equal rights, freedom and liberty. It does not exist.
Mistakes in the quran;
the angel Gabriel is not the holy spirit.
The quranic isa masu and mariam are not the Jehoshuva and Miriam of the Bible.
The concept of the christian trinity written down in the quran by muhammed
is (whether on purpose or not) not the word of Jhvh.
Even if the angel Gabriel would have transmitted the quran to muhammed
than it still prooves that muhammed failed the Micaiah test.
(same happened to joseph smith).
Quran does not have the spiritual back-up of YHWH Ruach.
Quran 16:102 "the spirit of holiness" is NOT the Yhwh Ruach, the same applies to Ps 51:11;
"take not thy holy (kodesh) spirit (ruach) from me"is NOT Yhwh Ruach.
5:110; "bringest forth the dead" is spiritually because islam does not recognise the corporal
resurrection under normal circumstances, allah does not change physical laws to enable
supernatural events (self-imposed god-restriction in islam).
26:193:"the ruholameen has brought it down" gabriel can't be the holy spirit for it would make
an angel part of god. Gabriel is an Angel; a serving creature Holy Spirit is part of Yhwh.
The Ruach does not indwel angels.
Quran 2:97; "whoever is an enemy of gabriel, for indeed he brought it down to your heart".
The enemies of Angels are the Devil and his demons.
Even if Gabriel brought down a message to muhammed, it was a test!
-All Archangels can down (to me or to you) and declare that Sierra Leone will be the centre of
prosperity and wealth and that the paradise coming down there from heaven, and that the
people there will be mightly used to spread the latest version of the renewed gospel of god's
intentions- it will not make it true, it is not according to the Word of Yhwh nor according to the
Ruach, one can believe angels rather than Yah and one is free to do so, but you are anathema
if you accept another gospel and you should repent, mend your ways and turn to the LIVING
Yahweh by Jehoshuva through the Ruach under the Kabod.
Mr Godfear,
This is where we depart.
I have posted many information about Islam and refuting allegations against
it.Yet not all are published.It is apparent that you will only hear what you prefer to hear.It is your choice
and it is your "soap box "(your website ).
Do not claim that you have not been enlightened on the real truth, not something conjured by Paul of Tasaurus and his cohorts.
Bye.
Yes, sorry I was not in today, If you signup with intensedebate i would whitelist your account so your comments show up right away.
I had asked the question before, I'm not sure if I overlooked your comment or not. But I had asked the question,
How does one in Islam, Go to heaven?
This is not my "soap box" but a website where I publish truth. To date no one on earth has been able to show where and how the Bible is ever wrong. No one has yet to show where Jesus didn't say he was God.
Jesus did in fact say, He was God. How do you get around this claim that Jesus said over and over? He didn't say it once and the Bible doesn't claim it only in one book, but the whole bible says this.
In my mind, you either must not think any of the bible is true, or must think it is all true. Because to believe one part and not all of it, well that's just simply fitting it with your own personal view. Trying to conform the Bible to what you believe, rather than what the Word of God says.
So you see, Islam will say some of the Bible is true but not all of it? You see, one of these books are in fact not telling the truth. Why would Christians believe a book written after the Bible by a man we do not believe was inspired by God. Who writes a book that is completely twisted around from what the Bible says?
Greetings,
Apologies for that outburst.
You say "Jesus did in fact say, He was God.'
To us Muslims that is an interpretation of a verse.We will only be satisfied if Jesus says
"Pray to me,I am God.' Matters of this importance have to be direct for not everybody are learned theologists.Quran is very direct on this matter.
As the first and New Testaments in OUR BELIEFS are contaminated , we cannot say it is entirely void and null.We do not subscribe to your objective type of question –yes or no.There are 24,000 manuscripts in the Bible and the forger could not do it all due to risks involved that it may be detected.That is what we believe .
If you don't have a Bible to check all these you can do it online as well http://www.biblegateway.com/
You know and I know this very single item of Jesus is God, if it is true, and if you knew it was true would you convert to being Christian? Would you accept Christ then? Even if you knew it as fact?
Do not fall of the lie of the bible is misinterpreted. I say study it yourself don't go on other people's ideas. You find out for yourself before you judge it. Because I have, and while I don't know the "whole" Qur'an" I know enough of it to know that it's false and completely against the true Jesus, the True God.
Muslims get this idea so wrong, God the Father and Jesus Christ are ONE in the SAME. We believe in ONE GOD, We don't believe God had a partner, we believe God and Jesus are the same thing. Jesus was asked "Show us the father" and he told them anyone who has seen me has seen the father. Listen you can try to twist his words and claim it's this or that, but Jesus called himself God.
Even in Genesis (OT) Jesus was who created the world, universe, etc. All over the OT Jesus is God.
Like I said, before you simply blow it off, this is something you need to know for sure what you believe about Jesus and what the Bible says. Because I have a feeling if you knew for a fact Jesus was God… You just might want to change your mind.
God Bless
If you are referring to the Quran , it is a Divine Book of messages delivered by Gabriel (pbuh )
to a Prophet.It is the last Testament .It was not written by prophet Muhammad (pbuh ) because he did not know how to read and write.Scribes wrote down on what he uttered.The Quran was read to the angel Gabriel as means of checking for once a year for 23 years.You will say BUT MUHAMMAD COULD NOT READ.Yes, he could not read but he could recite the whole Quran for he had it learned by heart as do millions of Muslims now.Not even a full stop or coma cannot altered can escape our attention.
If you say the Quran is written by satan as often said by your people and without evidence too,
a question will be asked will satan codemns himself over and over again? Will satan exhort people to righteousness?
Well let me ask you something…
"The Quran was read to the angel Gabriel as means of checking for once a year for 23 years."
Did Allah not have the power to make sure his word didn't change? Why only 23 years? Why not read to Gabriel 50? Or every year? Why did it need to be read to Gabriel at all? Could not Allah know if it was correct or not?
Knowing a book letter by letter does not make you righteous in the eyes of God. Man's self righteousness is like dirty rags. How can you meet God's standards?
I have asked a few times, can you please answer the question of How does one in Islam gain righteousness enough to enter heaven? How does one in Islam go to Heaven?
Satan is not condemning himself, he's speaking towards the true God in the Koran. Satan has the power to exhort a false religion to a state of "false righteousness" of course. This would be the idea in a mans head that "he has (good) righteousness". How could man's righteousness stand up to God's standards of righteousness? To say you could, would be to say YOU ARE GOD. And I surely do not believe YOU are God.
Also, Who read the Quran to Gabriel? You have told me, God doesn't need partners, but in your religion of Islam, you have already showed me that the Allah of Islam needs many partners to get a job done. Such as Gabriel to check it, men to read it to Gabriel (I guess Gabriel can't read either? Power Angel he is, I thought he could read) and he needed Muhammad to utter words to a series of "scribes". That to me sounds like a lot of partners.
Mr God fear,
I think I did not make it clear that Muhammad recited the Quran to Gabriel (pbuh ) at every Ramadhan that is for 23 years until he died (pbuh ) He was a prophet for 23 years.That reading was to check what the Prophet had learnt by heart.Of course, Gabriel knew the Quran , it was he who recited it to Muhammad verse by verse for 23 years.Muhammad (pbuh ) and the prophet learnt it by heart and recited it to scribes that is those who could write. Muhammad pbuh like Prophet Jesus (pbuh ) was a human being and not infallible Thus the annual checking.of the words and most importantly the messages..The Prophet could not write nor read but as with Arabs that time and now, they are great memorisers.So how could an illiterate knew about creation of the Universe, the orbit of the sun and moon and the Big BANG? He must be a true prophet.
I understand that he died, my point was at what point did they just not need a guy making sure it's all correct? Who checks it now? (My point being your religion depends that a man God it right, While with the Bible we depend on God)
See your asking me how could an illiterate know about such things, (Big Bang theory) we believe to be FALSE and a false teaching by satan. So your right just how could he know those things? Satan? Have you ever thought maybe it wasn't so much Muhammad telling your angel but a fallen angel telling him?
The Biblical writers we believe was inspired by God to write what they did. It puts the way God created the universe much differently that Islam does. You see, in a false religion I would think Satan would try to use the same "system" of things. In other words Satan would replace God with himself. Satan would twist everything around and put in fore knowledge of what he would later make another religion out of. Evolution.
Satan isn't some stupid angel, Satan was the most powerful and most beautiful angel ever created. What you think of Satan and what satan really is might be two different things. I believe this is backed up by the fact the Qur'an was written "after" the bible. I think that should be a dead give away to anyone. Thus why it's against Christians and Jews.
Why isn't the Qur'an against Mexicans and Australians? Why Christians and Jews? Because it's against Jesus, God's chosen people the Jews and God's land Israel. Let there be no confusion about this part.
http://www.gjcn.org/2009/01/is-evolution-logical-… http://www.gjcn.org/2009/01/is-evolution-logical-… http://www.gjcn.org/2009/01/muslim-faith-jesus-ch… http://www.gjcn.org/2009/01/religion-vs-christian… http://www.gjcn.org/2009/01/satan-the-great-count… http://www.gjcn.org/2009/06/the-antichrist-one-wo… http://www.gjcn.org/2009/09/the-great-hoax-of-evo… http://www.gjcn.org/2009/01/the-gospel-of-jesus-c…
You should check these other pages out. You need to know these things.
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Quran is a mercy to mankind.God almighty being God may just let men go astray but by His atttributes of Al Rahim and Al Rahman He let us be guided by the Quran.,He is the Supreme, if He Wills His servants to lead men,to check the Quran, to bring the clouds or to bring death that is His Wills, His prerogatives reminding us of His Sublime Power.If He Wills to create things or get things done not through His servants the Angels and prophets,that is also His Will 'Kun Fa Ya kun" He says 'be' . and it is created.He has no partner and does not want to.His servants are servants and He tested them through those assignments given to them.Do you think we and the jinns are His only servants? There are other inhabitants in the 52 billion galaxies and as I said it is His mercy that we are guided by Him.
.
On that heaven thing I have replied but not published. I will write again.
Regards.
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Satan telling mankind and Jinns that he and his cohorts are their dealiest enemies?
"Its's like Moses telling people that he died." in the bible.It's utter Illogical and nonsensical.Righteousness applicable to humans and Jinns are laid down in the Quran
WHAT MUST MUSLIMS DO TO GO TO HEAVEN.?
Mr God fear,
Islaamic concept of salvation is not based upon good deeds, but is based primarily upon faith. In the dozens of times Allah Almighty talks in the Quran about salvation, he always states, "Those who believe and do good deeds." Belief is always mentioned before deeds or works. When one converts to Islaam, one does not do it by doing some good work but rather through realizing and believing that there is but one God and Muhammed peace be upon him is his last messenger. Non-Muslims may perform good works as well, but what sets them apart from Muslims is their lack of IMA’AN (Aqeedah) [faith], or belief. The reason that the good works of the non-believers are worthless in the hereafter is because of their disbelief. Unless a person's imaan or aqeedah is not correct, all his good deeds are worthless.
So the short version is this? Correct me if I am wrong.
To be able to go to Heaven one must "Believe that there is but one God and Muhammad is his last messenger" Correct?
Here's a few questions. Do you believe the devil (Satan) believes there is One true God? Of course he does, will Satan be allowed? What about people who believe there is a God and Satan but are not Muslim will they go to heaven?
I believe the Anti-Christ is going to use the fact that Islam doesn't have the answer for this question. The Anti-Christ will say (along with the false prophet) that any who have believed in God (Him the Anti-Christ) are saved and this will be how he gets the Muslims to accept other religions into a one world religion. You see it's the perfect setup for Islam to follow into agreement with the Anti-Christ (You call him your Mahdi) and you even believe that "Jesus" is coming with him. Well according to Jesus' own words what Islam believes can't be true (At least disagrees with what Jesus said many times). (The first coming of Jesus to earth was when he was born here) Because first Jesus comes to the clouds to take up the church, body of Christ (Church Age Believers) and then the 2nd coming (which is the 2nd coming to earth ie: feet touching ground) where Jesus defeats the Anti-Christ, his armies and then sets up his kingdom here on Earth for the 1000 year reign of Jesus.
You see, if you study the Bible you see how Islam fits all the parts but backwards. Knowing the Qur'an was written after the bible, the logical conclusion is Satan wrote his own book after God wrote his with the Bible. It's the logical way and the fact History supports the time frame, well when you have 2 plus 2 they equal four.
Christians do NOT believe "good" deeds save you.
True Christianity believes that Man can DO (no work) nothing to gain salvation, to be allowed into Heaven.
The bible says we have ALL sinned and have come short of the Glory of God.
You have sinned. I have sinned. Just believing there is a God is not enough. It doesn't pay for your sin problem.
You must accept that Jesus Christ PAID for your sin. (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ) John 3:16. The bible says this Everywhere and it's the main theme of the WHOLE bible that Jesus pays for man's sin.
If you just believe there is a God (even the true one) What pays for your sin? Is God going to allow your sins into Heaven? Jesus PAYS(takes away) your sin issue. God can not allow SIN into Heaven! Period!
Listen to what I'm telling you.
I'm telling you, that you will go to Hell if you do not Accept Jesus as the Messiah. This is according to Jesus' own words. The Word of God.
No amount of "good" works, "good" deeds, praying, acting real religious, praying 200 times away, none of that will earn you Heaven. Unless your spirit is made alive by accepting Jesus Christ as your pardon for your sins!
I tell you this, because this is what the WHOLE bible is about. OT and NT. All of it is centered on Jesus.
I tell you this, because as a human, I want you to know the TRUTH that you will be in heaven forever.
I'm saying this is something you should figure out before blindly just following ANY religion. Being a Christian is not a religion. It's a personal relationship with our Father. God.
If you are wrong in your religion, what happens? If I am wrong in my belief what happens?
This is of the utmost importance that you need to look into. Nothing else even matters.
Mr.Othman.
The problems of muslims is that,they bealive that there are demons (jinns) who are moslems and other are not as Qur’an say,also they bealive that Lucifer is the King of Jinns (demons) who are moslems.Right Mr.Othman?? Do you bealive that Lucifer is the King of jinns (demons) as Qur’an say Mr.Othaman?? What is the name of Satan Mr.Othman??
Greetings Mr Godfear,
Al Quranul Karim (The Holy Book )
The words and Messages of God delivered to Muhammad (pbuh ) by Jibril (pbuh ).The Prophet was an illiterate but could recite the Quran through memory.Jibril came to check the Prophet's recitals and confirmed on abrogations of some messages (not words ) .This process took 23 years.
These recitals were written down by scribes who were the few literate people at that time.
Other people including the close companions ( may God bless them ) who were literate also memorised the Quran.Now there are millions who could recite the Quran through memory.1.6 biliion recite verses of the Quran by memory in daily prayers 5 times a day in mosques and houses.Not a single coma altered will escape the attention of the Muslims.This authenticity is preserved for 1400 years.This is the answer to your question on who now checks for its authencity.The Quran is recited in its original Quraysh Arabic dialect ,not translations.Malays , Chinese read it in Arabic.I am a Malay and I can recite and read Quran in Arabic
So in other words, You put all your faith in that man's memory. Are you 100% sure he was 100% correct about the things of Jesus Christ? Did Muhammad ever meet Jesus Christ? See my point? Who taught Muhammad about Jesus Christ?
I believe I will believe the writings of Paul, Mark, Luke, John Peter; Know why? Because they was there. They lived with Jesus day to day. They claimed the writings they did was the living Word of God. They performed miracles to prove who they get power from. These men brought the dead back to life. Heal the blind, lame and sick. They had full credentials of who and what they are. Plus they where with Jesus. Saw his sin less life. His Death, and his resurrection. By the work of the Lord Jesus Christ man has one way to be saved. I'm sorry but the Bible backs itself up perfectly. Anyone who studies it in it's English or original language and you will see what it says about Jesus being God. The only sinless lamb to pay for man's sin so that whoever believes on the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved.
John 3:16
Where was Muhammad? Muhammad was a man who never even met Jesus, but some how knows all about him. This adds up when you know the Qur'an was written After the Bible. Perfectly Logical. Anyone unbiased could see it.
How tragic, how sad.
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Science Big Bang Theory, Astronomy,Evolution.
It is not a mystery why many western scientists are atheists.The Bible is found to be incompatible
with scientific evidence.Galileo and Copernicus were considered heretics because they said the earth is not the center of universe.Quran has no problem with science-it stated 1400 years ago that earth rotates round the sun. Quran rejected Darwins' theory of evolution for man's origins is from Adam (pbuh).
'Why isn't the Qur'an against Mexicans and Australians? Why Christians and Jews? Because it's against Jesus, ''
This topic on Islam's relationships with Jews and Christians have been explained in earlier posts
which unfortunately you chose not to understand or not to have them published. Eskimos,Mexicans Jews, christians ,communists, democratists,liberals or anybody who used force to prevent Muslims from performing their religious obligations will be met with force .BUT when these people stop we are told to stop and immediately desist.
Please name one item that is found in the bible to be "incompatible" with science. Hard science, repeatable science.
Eskimos,Mexicans Jews, christians ,communists, democratists,liberals or anybody who used force to prevent Muslims from performing their religious obligations will be met with force ."
So in other words, if I don't allow you to control my home with your religion law you would meet me with force. To bring this into a world view, If the United States of America doesn't submit to Islam's law, it will be meet with force?
Do you see why the world sees this as a "Islam is a end all be all" religion? Don't try and pull my leg, no body is trying to "prevent Muslims" from doing whatever they want on their lands and countries.
Muslims move into other nations, then try to change the law of those nations and when they say no we don't like it Muslims will then try to say they are "preventing" them.
Listen I believe that a man should stay loyal to his wife. However it is not the way of Christians to "force" the way we believe, we believe that by teaching we will win souls. Not all will listen, not all will follow, but it is completely against God's Will to use "force" to make people live the way of the Bible.
At what point in time was it ok for a Muslim to strap explosives to his chest and walk into a cafe' and blow himself up? How can you justify that? Show me in the Qur'an where is says to kill people who have had nothing to do with your cause! Show me in the Qur'an where it says to kill any and all who had nothing to do against you.
However, in Israel, this is the case. Killing a Jew for the Muslims who follow the Qur'an fully (Western Media) calls them "Islamic Extremist" but I don't buy that for one second. I believe these men are following what the Qur'an says to the letter.
You'll never see this in the Bible. No where in the Bible does it say to "go after" some race of people. No where does it say use force to make people believe your way. The bible says that if someone is against you, you should love and pray for them as you would do for yourself.
The Bible says that you should love your enemy because if you only love the ones who love you how would anything ever change?
The Bible says the one's who live by the sword will die by the sword.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
The Greek word for sword here is (machaira) which means "figuratively war". In other words if you seek out war as your first option then it will be war that consumes you.
This bible verse explains exactly the Islamic religion. It's bent on world domination and uses war as it's first option every time. History proves this over and over. Sugar coating it any other way would be to deny it. The attacks against Israel for whatever reason one can come up with is justified in the mind of the Muslim. But what would you do if some Christian did this to your family while you sat and ate dinner? Would you like it? No of course not. Why would you ever think to do it to someone else?
That's the problem with Islam and Muslims they won't stop for one minute to think how the Jews are feeling, How Israel feels as a nation. The whole Islamic religion stands against them. You know how many nations that is. Israel is such a tiny nation ever really wondered why Islam "truly" hates Israel? I feel if I told you that answer it would greatly upset you, thus I hold my comment.
I'm not going to sugar coat world religions. I believe religion to be the single most evil thing Satan EVER invented. Regardless if you believe/know this or not it is the Truth. The reason is once a man is into a religion he will hardly come out of it.
Christianity is NOT a religion. Jesus called his followers "Friends". It's a relationship with God the Father. A RELATIONSHIP. Not a Religion! I have a relationship with my wife, my kids and other friends in my life. I do not have a religion with them. I have a relationship with man's Father (Creator God) Lord Jesus Christ.
This is where Jesus called religion evil. Did you know that? Did you know Jesus told religious men that they would Never see the Kingdom of God?
Whatever you think of Jesus, you might want to find out if he *really* said that or not. Because it might mean God's Kingdom to you or not. IT all depends on if you think Jesus was a liar or if Jesus told the Truth. You have said you believe some of the Bible. Listen it's either all correct or all wrong.
At least know on what side of the line you stand on when it comes to Jesus Christ.
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The case against City of Medina's Jews and Arabia's Christians took center stage in several surah in the Quran because they conspired with the pagans and idolaters to prevent Muslims from praying to the one and one only God.Peace came after the conspirators Jews left for good and the Christians were defeated.Some Jews and all Christians reverted to Islam.That incident formed the basis of Islam-Jews-christians relationship.Do not twist and turn the facts .
Mr Godfear, I expect this to be published notwithstanding whether they are unpalatable to you.
For this is a discussion forum and I am not exerting that you believe in what I state.
Thank You.
Mr Abiero,
Muslims do not have problems with our belief that besides man, there are other creatures such as jinns, animals,plants etc. As with men,there are jinns who are led astray by Iblis and his cohorts the satans and demons.These astrayed beings are jinn-satans ( some called them demons ) and human satans ( some called them human disbelievers and unbelievers out to create havoc ) .There are those who abide with God's commands and they are jinn-muslims and human -muslims.
We believe that Iblis who witnessed the creation of and outlived ADAM (PBUH ) and still is around
is from the Jinn species.He is not from the angels.
Do not be associated with Iblis and his cohorts the Jinn satan and human satan.
Mr Odwar Obeiro,
You seem to be preoccupied with this satan things.Let's talk about science-and economics and how we can redirect these disciplines towards obeiscence to God.
Do you know that the earth is rotating in its orbit less faster than before ? Scientists say it is due to the pull from the moon.If the orbiting becomes much slower, there is a likelihood that earth and moon will collide! What scientists do not know is that head on crash may happen anytime and only God almighty knows when it will happen.The point is there are many many things we can look into ,learn and observe the greatness and beauty of God's creation instead of dwelling into satan and trying to corner me with ridiculous questions.
That is something that worries me. You see it as dwelling, I see it as knowing your enemy. You see the worst mistake one can make in the battlefield is not knowing your enemy.
Let me make this very clear. In all things spiritual, there is a war waging on. These elect angels and fallen angels are fighting over your soul. God is doing everything he can within the limits of your free will to bring you to him. To think that knowing what and how satan operates is something not to be concerned with is foolish at best.
It doesn't take me longer than ten minutes to show proof that evolution by logical thinking did not take place. Nor has the world been here "millions of years". No science backs up the idea that the world is older than 6000 years. No science backs up the idea of one animal changing into another kind of animal.
I'm not sure where your getting your science from, But the moon is getting further away from earth every year and the rotation of earth is slowing. This is hard factual science that you can find on any science website.
If the world was millions of years old, where would the moon be? You see just a basic logical question puts the whole theory of evolution into a big twist. However in the Bible it's perfectly sound.
I'd also like to point out that the Bible knew of all kind of scientific items well before "modern" man. Such as deep sea springs which we didn't even know about till the 1970s, but the oldest book in the bible knew about them.
Mr.Othman.
Thank you for your answer.You agreed that there are jinns (demons) who are moslems.But the Bible say that king of all all demons (jinns) is SATAN.So if you bealive that there are demons (jinns) who are moslems and help moslems in their normal life as Qur'an say,you must be in wrong faith,you may feel that you are saved by God but SATAN deceived you through his messengers who are demons.Man is not SATAN as you said Othman.Man is man and Satan is Satan NO Man (satan) as Qur'an say.Bible and Qur'an is like day and night so how could you compare day and night??
Mr Odwar,
As usual your obsession is with this topic:
'Man is man and Satan is Satan NO Man (satan) .'
PHYSICAL DIFFERENCES. Jinns vs human
If you talk in context of physical existence of course they are different. Man is created differently from Jinns Jinns are created from smokeless fire.
DIFFERENCES IN FAITH : Jinns and humans.
Adam (pbuh ) is the father of all humans.That is the very reason that Muslims reject outright Darwin's idiotic theory on evolution.Adam submitted to one and one only God.One of the leaders of the Jinns, Iblis refused to bow to Adam even though he was commanded by God to do so.This refusal earned him God's wrath .Iblis, a jinn, refused to submit to God's command and he is also a shaitan (satan ).Those that he led astray till Day of Judgement are jinns and humans.These are jinn -satans (demons) and man -satans (disbelievers and unbelievers ) .The zionists, free masons, nazis ,communists and atheists who not only unbelieve in God but create obstacles to other man's submission to God are the human-satans.They mislead other humans to become human -satans.
CONTINUATION
To conclude, Al Quran teaches that there are physical differences between jinns and humans.There are differences in faith amongst jinns as with humans for there are Muslim jinns and non Muslim jinns.Non muslim jinns led by Iblis are satans and demons.
Non muslim humans are misled by Iblis and human -satans .Human satans are those that are leading most of the western countries now.These are the species that are causing havocs ,
ever presumptious of their military power not knowing that the Great Roman empire did FALL.
Mr Odwar, to day is Friday in Malaysia.We muslims are going in droves to our mosques for WEEKLY congregational prayers.Care to join and listen?
Mr.Othaman.
As i know the Qur'an say that, Lucifer is the kings of jinns (demons) who are moslems and also Lucifer attends to the Mosque 5 times per day for pray as moslems mans do,right? I remember when i visited at moslems universty at AL HAZAR in Egypt in 2001,when i talked with Qur'an teacher one of them told me that in heaven God know only Arabic language,so anyone who will not speak arabic could not go to heaven,right?? Tomorrow i will explain to you how Satan lier people and his technique of lying.
Mr Odwar,
We do not know who lucufer is.What we know is Iblis and his cohorts the Jinn satan(demons ) and
human satans (unbelievers who disbelieve ) and that includes the zionists and Christian evangelists.
This evangelist is trying hard to make me disbelieve my faith.Go on trying but you can never succeed because you are standing on straws.A nuisance perhaps but never a threat.I am thinking of not responding but why not have fun.Go on talking about "Ghaibah ' things but you should also put your feet firmly on solid grounds– discuss on economics.science, health issues..
Somebody from Al Azhar? The sweeper or cleaner or Qibti or Father Botrous that misinform? Meet somebody more intellectual.
Al quranul karim; the holy book? holy books do not exist.
quran; "this is a perfect book". another impossibility; perfect books do not exist.
muhammed description of christian trinity is (on purpose or not) totally false.
also there are no human satans, his demons can posses people,
the devil will only indwell the false prophet and the anti-christ.
99% of world population will only reach a perpetual spiritual stationary state at best
(as punishment besides the destruction of body and soul)
for being religious and/or for being ruled by religion.
They won't enter the Qahal YHWH. one got to be born again (spiritually) by Ruach YHWH.
Grretings Mr Christos,
To us AlQuran is a perfect and holy Book.It is a perfect guidance to Jinns and mankind.Since time immemorial man has always depended on written guidance.Spiritual rituals without written guidance will lead man astray.. to Iblees.Your 'born again' concept is incomprehensible without proper guidance from a book.It is from written documents that an ordinary reasonable man can detect its authencity.Without a book it is pure conjecture.
No human -syaitans but only human possessed by demons?
Iblees is the father of all Jinn -syaitans.He mislead humans to disobey God and these humans ,because they are subservient to Iblees instead of submitting to God are human-syaitans.
Some of them are more evil than Iblees.For example Firaun in Moses (pbuh ) time.He not only murdered Bani Israel's males but proclaimed himself as god.He is a human -syaitan.He was not possessed by syaitans or demons for when he proclaimed himself as God even Iblees was amazed at his extreme rebelliousness towards God.
CONTINUATION
Therefore syaitans are defined as beings be it Jinns or humans who do evil things and rebel against God's Commands.Syaitan is more of a description of evil beings doing evil deeds.Not submitting to God is the 'mother ' of all evil deeds.When a human syaitan does not submit to God i.e Islam this leads to him doing evil deeds to fellow humans,(nazis,zionists ) to animals ( hunting animals for sports and cruelty to animals ) greed ( spilling oil ), rapes (paedophile on children even by priests ) etc.
Greetings mr. Othman,
You state it well:"to us (muslims) Al quran is a perfect and holy book".
For most people vedas, tenach, new testament, quran are just books.
If you rely on scripture without the spiritual indwelling, guidance, revelational experience of YHWH, you only create brain-dead human religion, my proof is the declining spititually since the beginning of the 1990's in ALL major world-religions.
Written guidance all by itself won't suffice due to numerable human interpretations.
Without being "born again" (spiritually) you can't enter the Qahal Yhwh.
Another mistake; satan is a fallen angel and does not have the power to indwell large
numbers of people personally and simultaneously, he is not omnipotent, omniscent nor omnipresent, it is an over-estimation of the devil, just as dangerous as an under-estimation,
for if you are just another christian, jew, muslim, hindu, buddhist, sikh, agnostic, atheist or
ordinairy human being, he will kick your ass anyhow, anytime, anywhere… unless you are
in Yehoshuwa through the Ruach under the Kabod surrounded by Malak YHWH.
continue;
Real submission to YHWH will only take place in the Millennium, humanised religion won't
realise this for the very simple reason that humans can't. only Real Divine Intervention by
YHWH (and not by the inactive side-lining of brahman, buddha, elohim, god or allah) can
establish this. after that humans will rebel again under satan and will be destroyed during
the last war (battles after harmageddon are before the Millennium).
Mr.Othman.
The devil is a creature who pretend to be God that is why he is beguiling people so that they may worship him.The way he did to Eve and Adam is how he did to Mohammed S.W.The Qur'an says that demons were the first creature to accept the Mohammed's S.W apostolic Why demons were the first to accept him?? We should be very clever to think about it.Was he sent to the people or demons?? Demons whom Qur'an says that are moslems are the same Satan messengers who after his fall from heaven with evil angles which known as demons,they are the one accepted Mohammed's S.W apostolic first before people.When Mohammed S.W was given his apostolic with single eye creature,unknown creature as the Qur'an says,Is this creature an angle or Satan? The stone that moslems are stoning in Mecca is not Satan but he is beguiling moslems that he is that stone in Mecca.Satan is very clever ,that is why people are killing an innocent fellows thinking that they are fight for God,nothing like that.Qur'an 5:35 Suratul Al-maidah,Allah commands moslems to fight for their religion and killing innocent people.Jesus is pleading so that you may enter the door.
Greetings Mr Godfear,
Any comment on thsi excerpt "The Catholic Church teaches "theistic evolution," which accepts evolution as scientific theory. Proponents see no reason why God could not have used an evolutionary process in forming the human species. "
Yes. The Catholic church is not true Christianity it's a religion. Jesus taught against all religions. The go into any Catholic church for crying out loud and you'll find graven images to Mary.. they worship her. They say "repetitive" prayers which the bible calls foolish and useless. Some in the Catholic church which do not understand/know the bible accept evolution and try to tie the two together to fit the Catholic bible (which is not the real bible)
So yes, your just pointing out another false religion believe man made religion things (Evolution itself is a religion)
I surely hope you don't think true Christians are all apart of the Catholic church.
I will say this. There is some Churches that claim to be "Catholic" but do follow/believe in Jesus Christ that do it the true Christian way of the real bible. Not many, but there is some. Why they continue to call themselves Catholic and identify themselves with a false religion is beyond me.
Thank You
That's the good thing about these 'discussions ' .So you are not a catholic nor a protestant?
Mr Pastor Odwar,
Are you a catholic?
Mr Pastor,
Either you have been given a misleading translation of the Quran or you purposely mislead yourself and at the same time misleads others.I have explained at length that the command to take arms were and are still for defensive purposes i,e when others prevent Muslims from praying to God Almighty.
The Quran says everyman is responsible for his own sin for in Surah 6 verse 164 ;no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another"Nobody atones for your sins.However in the case of misleading others it is a sin of the misleader himself , and he must suffer the double penalties of rejecting God's messages and misleading others.Those mislead are not relieved of their responsibilities either.You have been informed.
Or is it for some pecuniary reasons that you hold on stubbornly to your fairy tale stories of ghosts and demons?
The Bible says the wages of sin is DEATH. No man can pay for his sins without paying for it by Death. (2nd death of being cast into the Lake of Fire)
Jesus Christ is the only one who can remove your death penalty. You are born with a death penalty because Adam sinned so though him all men have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. (God's standards vs man's standards of righteousness)
Your religion or any religion can say whatever it wants. But unless you are born again by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ no man shall enter the kingdom of heaven. Otherwise you pay for your sin. And the only way you can do that is to die the 2nd death and be thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Any name for this faith.? Still believe in Trinity ?
Name for this faith? Christianity. True Bible believers. Of course there is a Trinity. What you see as "3 Gods" is not how it is, we see it as ONE God, who acts in 3 Ways SO THAT, Humans can understand what he is doing for Mankind.
We do NOT believe in 3 gods, We believe in one Creator Almighty God. Who had a human son who's name was Jesus That same God was Jesus. Jesus said him and the father (God) are the same. That anyone who has seen Jesus as seen the Father.
When you get to Heaven, it will be Jesus you see (either welcoming you or saying he never knew you), When GOD comes to setup his Kingdom on earth it will be JESUS as King. ONE GOD.
Also I am not a pastor.
Mr.Othman.
I am not misleading translation of the Qur'an but i feel that there is something is beguiling you to understand what i am telling you from Qur'an.
Bible says: 2 Timothy 2:3-4 .For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,having itching ears.4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth ,and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 .And for this caose God shall send them strong delusion,that they should believe a lie.12,That they all might be daned who believed not the truth,but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
I have 9 muslims who i taught the Bible verses the Qur'an and converted from muslims and now they are good christians.I am not a Catholic Mr.Othman,but what about you? Are you a Sunni,Ahhamadia,Bohora,Shia or what??
Mr Pastor,
Did you convert those ordinary poor folks with the aid of money for adults and sweets for the children? In Indonesia, after having got those gifts from the missionaries the poor ignorant folks
revert to their previous beliefs.
As to your question; I am a Muslim and I can perform my solat (prayers ) in ANY mosque
notwithstanding they are of different schools of thoughts.Unlike the difference between
Protestants and Catholics and other hundreds of denominations in christianity, the difference between the various school of thoughts (mazhab ) are in secondary matters only ie NOt on the essence of God. We pray to One God and manifest that Muhammad (pbuh ) is the last messenger of God.We also declare that Jesus (pbuh ) and Moses (pbuh ) are messengers of God.We have only ONE book that is the Quran, unchanged for 1400 years.
Money for adults? Sweets for kids? Money for the poor (yes) Food for kids (yes)
I take your comment as a rather ugly comment because your trying to say we buy believers. And let me tell you, even it if WAS true, which it is not no one can BUY a believer, One must make up their own mind about Jesus. So paying them doesn't do anything because they have to "believe" it (in their own heart) and food or money would never "force" them to do that… one must believe on Jesus for salvation. A sword will not help to convert someone to Jesus either.. fyi
Now however, in the Koran is it or is it not true you are COMMANDED to kill Jews and Christians where you find them? Is it or is it not true that if one doesn't convert or submit to your religion you must kill them?
Do not try to lie to people here about these things, If you begin to lie and try to cover up verses from the Koran just so it doesn't look bad I will have to end this. If you try to say it doesn't say these things I will post the verses myself.
You can say you don't follow them, or believe them or that they was of another time/book whatever, But do not try to cover it up give your honest answer.
Yes there is denominations in Christianity. However any denomination that changes the Bible to fit whatever they believe would then be a false religion. Which most denominations that claim to be "Christian" are not really christian at all. It's a use of the name so that people like yourself will stereotype all people who claim to be Christian and then disclaim any real true bible believing Christian.
However it is also true that there is "denominations" within Islam as well. Also while you claim the Quran is unchanged, do you follow the war verses as well? Or do you overlook them? Care to share what they say for everyone to see how Islam really feels towards Jews and Christians?
This is why a Mosque can be in America because we have FREEDOM of religion. But when a religion wants to take control of government and change the laws of America, we Americans have problems with that.
But let's go to Iran or Pakistan and build a large Church and claim to be Christians. I just learned of two Christians who was friends of a pastor we know, these two men was killed in cold blood simply for being Christian. Islam claims to be peaceful but the true nature of the religion is out there for anyone to see.
Again when was the last time you had a Christian walk into a cafe' in Iran or Pakistan and blow himself up killing Muslims? It NEVER happens!
Also, Christians do not need to go to a church to pray. We have direct communication with God all the time. We can pray at anytime anywhere for anything. I know the Lord God is with me and that His Word the Bible is the Truth. I have no doubts.
I am able and willing to show this at anytime. I can call on my God for anything. Can you?
Mr Godfear,
"Now however, in the Koran is it or is it not true you are COMMANDED to kill Jews and Christians where you find them? Is it or is it not true that if one doesn't convert or submit to your religion you must kill them? '
These accusations have been going around for ages due to
1.Misinformation and disinformation from orientalists
2.Quoting the verses out of historical context
3.Adopting 'cut and paste ' method of exposing the subjects.
Please allow me sometime to collect revelant materials and post to this site.
Yes, I could see how you need some time to put it into context, ask your teacher, and figure out a way to make the verses of Koran look right in my eyes. Considering it says you should kill me.
No where in the Bible does it say Christians should kill Muslims for any reason. My Bible commands me to love and pray for you. So much so that I should witness about Jesus to you and not withhold the truth from you. You see many immature believers, as a enemy to them would rather you stay in your cursing of a false religion because they know that at the minute you accept Jesus you will be blessed and that your life would change like you have never thought.
You see I know witnessing to a religious person is very hopeless most of the time. A person will be so wrapped up in their religion that they won't step out and see what Jesus really did. To a lot of Christians it's a waste of time but I know and have seen Muslims convert to Christianity and I know that once they become saved by Jesus they have a new life one that is blessed and will have happiness like they have never known. I want you to know the love and happiness I have known. What do you offer people with your religion?
Mr Godfear,
The reason I am quite active is because the fasting month is around the corner and I feel I will not have the time to respond to your queries.Ramadan is time to abstain from drink,food, sex. uttering bad words etc from dawn to dusk.After that we have iftar, the breakfast and devote ourselves to prayers .It is for a whole month.
ok interestinlgly, you say "Also, Christians do not need to go to a church to pray
Muslims are given options to perform the obligatory 5 times a day prayers in the house or elsewhere that is not mass prayers but he has the incentives of getting more benefits
if he performed the compulsory prayers in a mass prayer in the mosque.For other non compulsory prayers he can perform it other than in the mosque.Friday mass prayers in a mosque is compulsory to all male muslims.
And what really has this done in your life? Can you say you feel God has helped you? God is with you? Has God showed you his love? Has God given you peace in your heart even against your enemy? Do you love your enemy and pray for them? Do you help your enemy?
You see, Christians send aid to even Islamic nations. Like Pakistan many people died in floods there and many Christian Americans will donate money to help them even know we know Muslims as a whole religion Hate Christians.
Look around you, ask your teachers if they will send money to help Christians who have been devastated by the Oil Spill in the Gulf of Mexico.
Who is of Love, who is of hate?
Mr Godfear,
"Iran or Pakistan and build a large Church and claim to be Christians. "
I do not speak on behalf of the Iranians or Pakistanis.This is what I explained earlier by differences in opinions by various school of thoughts (Mazhabs ) These opinions are not on essence of God but on relations between men; in this case Muslims -non muslims realtionships.However we cannot deny that the differences in opinions established by one locality with another need not be standardised for it depends on the environment ,circumstances and ijtihad of religious scholars.
For Muslims who left the faith they are called murtads.The persons killed in Pakistan could be murtads.In the east, murtad cases are treated quite differently.In Malaysia, we have laws that prohibit proletysing.Other cases of muratds will be counselled for some time whereby reteaching of the religion is carried out and in extreme cases, the court will allow apostates to embrace other faiths.In other laces such as Iran and Afghanistan, the laws may be different as I said it depends on the locality.This difference is a matter ot difference in interpretations and nothing to do with iman/aqeedah or realationship with God.i/e subsidiary matters.
waiting your reply… I see you came and made others.. but no reply to this as of yet.,
No one can atone for his own sins nor can anyone live a perfect life, the only one is YHWH
through Yehoshuwa who did it; sacrificed, died and rose again.
There is only new life through YHWH's Spirit, under its Glory surrounded by YHWH's Angel.
Many books are written and many things are said but one HAS to experience YHWH otherwise
all remains plain theory and interpretation.
Jesus was the only one to live a perfect sinless life. Amen
Greetings All,
Only priests will make knowing God a difficult thing, hence the G_d thing , for a reason which is normally self benefits.
Quran-9:34-”O YOU WHO BELIEVE! THERE ARE INDEED MANY AMONG THE PRIESTS AND AUTHORITIES, WHO IN FALSEHOOD DEVOUR THE SUBSTANCE OF MEN AND HINDER (THEM ) FROM THE WAY OF GOD…”
In the bible, All believers are priests, able to have a personal relationship with God.
So, your sect do not have priesthoods ? Your priests do not have the authority to forgive the sins of the living and the dead?Did not the mainstream protestants and christians
denominations label you as innovators? AND yours must be a minority group and a recent attempt to portray Christianity in a better light than the idol worshippers of the catholics and protestants.Yet the belief in trinity is itself idolship, a blasphemy.a Pauline innovation.
See that's the issue you have with Islam. It operates as if it's still in the time of the Law of Moses and it doesn't understand the age of Grace "Church" age. Jesus fulfilled the Law. Can you not see that? This is what Jesus taught!!
There is only one reason why you don't like the trinity let's be clear. That is because you don't want to accept the fact of what Jesus is. So you will believe anything else other than what Jesus is.
You see, your religion of Islam does the SAME thing ALL man made (satan inspired) religions all over the world does. REJECT JESUS as Messiah.
There is only one faith that Claims Jesus was the Messiah and all earth religions disclaim Jesus. You don't see some kind of pattern here?
What makes Islam so special? It's no different that any other worldly religion. Every aspect of it is replaceable. Muhammad is replaceable nothing special about him God could of used any man's son. In your mind what makes Islam so much different? I understand a lot of Muslims are very religious and the ones who become saved by Jesus are very very faithful. Some of you Muslims who become born again with Jesus make better Christians than most Americans ever will.
You see Jesus did NOT have a earthly father. Jesus can not be replaced. No one could do what he was able to do because he was sinless.
Look at it this way, God is a solid steel rod, Jesus (Human) is a bendable wire. Jesus' wire was wrapped around the steel rod and welded to it so that it could not be bent. Jesus could not sin because God can not sin. This is one way to look at Jesus. He was full humanity and God at the same time. He was able to be fully tempted, but Jesus could not sin. Because he was boned as one with the Father.
In other words, Jesus was God in full Humanity. I don't see why you would see this as something hard to believe. You believe God can create the universe but he couldn't become a man (something he created to begin with) Don't you see how you limit the rules on God and Jesus does not. Jesus is what he said he was. The One True GOD!
All the Bible predictions became true about Jesus. Not one prediction about Jesus in the OT didn't come true, Isaiah told what Jesus would be and who would reject him. You to this day are making Isaiah's prophecy as true today as it was when Jesus was put on the cross.
ben othaman. i told you before that there is something is beguiling you.i asked you a simple question that what is your denominations in islam? shia,ahhamadia,bohora,sunni or what? for suprise you unswered that you a moslem.do you want to tell me that no denominations in islam? what do you suprise from catholic? as i know islam and catholic are the same faith.
Mr Odwar,
As I told you I am a Muslim. My beloved leaders from Muhamad to Abraham are all Muslims.We
have differences in interpretations of some rulings on secondary matters for example, on what is the cut off period for a woman to remarry after a divorce.BUT on primary matters on God we DO NOT differ.We have ONE Book, same sets of beliefs ( Iman ).We do not have different mosques.Every Friday, the template for Friday congregational prayers is the same for every Muslim everywhere.
The differences in some of the set beliefs amongst the denominations of Christanity are wide encompassing even primary matters.Therefore, since I do not differ from my other brothers in Islam in beliefs in PRIMARY matters and they too do not, we do not have denominations.We only have mazhabs or different school of thoughts on furuq i.e subsidiary matters only.
Mr Godfear,
Your statement:
"REJECT JESUS as Messiah"
Masihi in semitic or messiah in Greek is the anointed one- Muslims believed Isa Al Masihi(Jesus the Messiah ) will descend and kill dajjal-the evil one-human syaitan.We only reject the idea that he is god for Jesus is God's creation and God cannot be compared to His creations.We Muslims do not accept an aota of blasphemy regarding God.He is One and One is one.Simple.No "if ",no "but", no word gymnastics ,no stretching the imagination to include dwellings or incarnations with humans whether in forms or substance.ABSOLUTELY and STRICTLY NONE.We respect Jesus as a great Prophet but cerainly he is not God or son of God.Jesus is God's servant.
Again, you base all of your faith that Muhammad was right about who and what Jesus is.
I take it on multiple witnesses who was with Jesus everyday who lived with him, served with him, watched him raise the dead, watched him heal the sick, Call himself God, Said he and the Father (God) are ONE (One God) and the hundreds who saw and witnessed to what Jesus did. Jesus (and the Bible)'s Authority was in the power and work of Jesus.
Again, on what Authority did Muhammad write the Quran? NONE, not a single thing. To top it off he taught things that are CLEARLY EVIL. No two ways about it. From killing Jews and Christians. To FORCING people to convert to Islam (Yea that's love and peace) to disclaiming everything about Jesus and twisting it all around.
No Body buys the idea that Islam is peaceful. Who are you trying to kid? If Islam doesn't get it's way it will attack you. There is way to much history to back this up. Islam is not of God. Islam is not love, it belittles women, degrades women, I could go on and on. Where is the love in Islam. There is none, it's all war and hate. Hate Jews, Hate Christians and if you don't get them to follow your way after talking to them, kill them.
And I bet that's about where you are with me right about now huh? This is the point where in your book you should put a sword though my body.
Who did you think you was going to come here and convert? Some old stupid christian boy that knows nothing about Islam? I know what is going on in Iran, Pakistan, India, Gaza, Israel, Turkey, Syria, etc. I know Christians are being killed at every opportunity and then people like yourself get the idea to come to christian websites and try to "teach" us that Islam is peaceful and loving. Yea it sure is up until you tell a muslim your a Christian that Proudly supports Israel and will bless Israel at every chance he gets. Gen 12:3
I've looked at your Islamic nations they are all left behind and backwards. You think it's satan who's made America powerful? No it was God. It was because of the USA that Israel was re-born. Just as the Bible said it would be. And what does Islam do? Starts attacking Israel right after they become a nation again. Why? Pure HATE of anything Godly. One tiny strip of land and one tiny amount of people and Islam has to hate them with everything they have.
Look at Iran. If that lunatic gets a nuclear weapon everyone knows what he will do with it. He'll bomb Israel. But Israel has had nuclear weapons for a very long time and have never used one against an Islamic nation even when Islamic nations attacked them!!!
Israel has a right to exist. You can not like them, but for Islam to say Israel should be wiped off the earth is pure EVIL!
Jesus Christ is the anointed one who provides salvation for anyone who believes on his name for salvation. God has a son named Jesus. You might want to look at what the Bible really teaches first and not go on what you have heard from one of your teachers. Learn for yourself before you judge!
CONTINUATION
Verse 5:72
"Certainly they disbelieve who say :
God( Allah ) is Christ and the son of Mary.
But SAID CHRIST:
O children of Israel,worship God(Allah ), my Lord and your Lord,
whoever joins other gods with God (Allah ), God (Allah ) will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode.There will for the wrong -doers be no one to help.
Verse 5:17
They disbelieved indeed ,those that say that God (Allah ) is Christ the son of Mary,
Say: '' Who then hath the least power against God (Allah ),if His Will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother and all -every one that is on earth?
For to God(Allah ) belongeth the dominion of the heavens.
Therefore it is crystal clear that He wants to have nothing to do with this indwelling in man thing!
Does not want to do is not the same as not being able to do.
Pray only to God, not with incarnations .Paul of Tasaurus was influenced by Greek and Hindus's concept of incarnations and indwellings.The Unitarians refused to do so.
So your saying that all the people who saw Jesus, even the ones who hated Jesus lied to make Jesus look good? Right.
And your saying we should all just take the word of a man Muhammad who never heard or saw Jesus.
Yup, I pray to God directly.
Jesus did rise from the dead, this is not only recorded in the Bible but even by the people who hated Jesus. Why would people who hated Jesus lie about what happened?
Now in my Book Satan wants to do everything he can to discredit Jesus's work, teachings, etc. And from your verse 5:72, this only goes to prove a point. Your God is not the same God of Christians. My God is the God of Israel who's son was Jesus.
Who is your God? God of the Arabs? You see this is a direct twist of what happened with Abraham. One son made the race of Jews, the other the race of Arabs which became Islam.
So it comes down to should I believe the word of multiple people and Jesus who all give testament to who / what Jesus is and did or should i just trust in a man Muhammad who never saw, never met or never knew Jesus? Who wrote his religion many hundreds of years AFTER the Bible…
c'mon it's silly. No we do not worship idols, no we do not believe there is 3 gods. We believe in one God who did things in such a way man could understand what he was doing.
What authority does Muhammad have? Jesus healed the sick, brought back the dead, etc, etc, etc… Jesus showed his Authority. Muhammad had not even a single one!!!
Mr Godfear,
You say "Muhammad had not even a single one!!!
The miracle of all miracles and the authority of all authorities is the Quran.
Jesus ( pbuh ) healed the sick but nowadays, advanced medical science can do that.
So without belittling the miracles for we muslims greatly respect Jesus (pbuh ) the miracles are more suited to that environment and period.
The Quran is for all mankind and for all ages and time.It is a Book , a perfect guidance for mankind till Judgement Day.That is Muhammad's (PBUH ) miracle– an intellectual property, ever lasting and caters for all requrements be it commerce, laws and science.It is a Book of knowledge dissiminated via learning and understanding the creations on earth and universe.
BTW What happened to the Quranic verses I posted earlier?
Mr Godfear,
You say "
And your saying we should all just take the word of a man Muhammad who never heard or saw Jesus. "
Muslims believed in what the last Prophet recited in the Quran ,said and do i.e the Hadith and sunnah.Those are messages from God of Abraham, of Moses, of David ,of Jesus and God of Muhammad (peace be upon all prophets )
"Yup, I pray to God directly.''
Muslims pray directly to God.In the mosque the Imam lead the prayers but each man is in direct communication with God.The mass prayer functions to mark Muslim solidarity and brotherhood. At home or even in the mosque one can pray alone.
Muhammad had no proof of his authority from God. Jesus raised the dead, healed the sick, etc. Jesus didn't come to heal everyone but it was used to show his authority from God. That he is God because no one could do what Jesus did. Muhammad did nothing to show he had authority from God.
What he "recited" in the Quran, listen to what your saying. You will take what some man said over all the years of the Bible? You don't believe the Bible but you'll take this man Muhammad's word as truth?
The bible says the world (satan's kingdom) will hate you (Christians) for the name of Jesus. Do you not see that Islam plays a part in that prophecy? The hate filled Muslims will do anything in arrogance to kill off the Christians and Jews. Anything. Your apart of that? You really believe that I will see Islam as a peaceful loving religion?
Jesus was the lamb that paid the price so that we don't have too. No one will go to hell because of their sin. You will be judged on your works. Your good deeds. And since you can do no good in the sight of the Lord God none of your good deeds will earn you righteousness in God's eyes. You as a human are sinful. You can not match God's righteousness!!! By accepting Jesus' work (God's work) you have imputed righteousness by Jesus' work and not your own!!! Because Jesus was perfect, sinless lamb of God.
How can you think God will allow you into heaven based on your own personal righteousness? Jesus fulfilled the law when he said You have heard if you take another mans wife you commit adultery, but Jesus said IF you lust after another woman you commit adultery in your heart!! The Law was to show man they are sinful and can not equal God's righteousness!
If you break one Law, you break them ALL! You must come to accept Jesus as your pardon for sin to enter Heaven. This is the very same thing that Jesus spoke to the religious people.
You can try and say you don't believe some parts of the Bible, but in reality you are saying NONE of the Bible is true. Either ALL the Bible is true or none of it is. You should make up your mind. Sadly I believe you already have.
Mr Godfear,
You say "One son made the race of Jews, the other the race of Arabs which became Islam''
Father of Bani Israel is Ya'kub (Jacob ) a prophet in Islam (pbuh ), Ya'kub 's nickname is Isra (the much travelled ) hence his descendants are Sons of Israel .His father was Ishaq (pbuh ) son of Abraham (pbuh )
From Ya'kub came 12 sons including Yusuf ( Joseph ) pbuh and they formed the kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Yehuda.These were Muslims in religion and Bani Israel or Yahudi by race.The Greek substitute' Y ' with "J" so you have word Jews .The lineage of Jewish muslim prophets starting from Ya'kub to Moses (pbuh ) to David (pbuh ),Solomon (pbuh ) and lastly to Jesus (pbuh ).This is the story of Ishaq (pbuh ) descendants.All Muslims until the ascendance of Prophet Jesus , after which the Jews were corrupted by their rabbis who changed the Torah to suit their political aims.The Muslim followers of Jesus known as the unitarians also perished overwhelmed by the Paulines.
Continuation
The descendants of Ismail(pbuh ) in Arabia did not have such colourful history as their Israeli cousins.After Ismail and Abraham set up the Ka'abah in Mecca, for centuries the Arabs were left to their own. Unlike their cousins the Jews, there were no prophets other than Ismail and their religious beliefs degraded into idol worship from the original Islam brought by Abraham and Ismail (pbu them ) Some were Christians, some were hunafis.There were Jews adherents of Judaism. a later innovation from the original Mosaic religion
In 7 th century AD Muhammad (pbuh ) proclaimed Islam the religion which is a continuity of Mosaic and Christianity the religions of Arab's cousins.
Islam is in no way the "continuity" of Christianity. Islam and Christians do NOT worship the same God. Christians worship the God of Israel, The Father of Jesus, God of Abraham and Moses. True Christians will bless Israel as commanded in Gen 12:3 and the ones who curse Israel will be cursed themselves.
Muhammad didn't like Jesus and had to figure out a way to disclaim him. But at the start of Muhammad he accepted Christians and Jesus because hardly anyone knew what he was teaching but once the truth of Muhammad's lies came out Christians rejected it as a false religion.
Look at all the nations that Islam controls. Name one nation that has the happiness, joy, love, care, sends aid help, blessing of God, the power of God behind them, peace. Islamic nations have been cursed because of the rejection of the true God and his son Jesus. This should be a dead giveaway. America stands with Israel and has been blessed all of it's life because of it.
Islam hates Israel and has been cursed. It's as simple as that!
Mr Godfear,
You say "What makes Islam so special?"
Islam is THE only religion because no other religion hold God's oneness (Unicity ) so steadfastly
and uncompromisingly.Others are directly (Hindus ,buddhists ) or indirectly (christians,sikhs ) worshippers of idols by way of form or substance or idealogy.Associating partners with God notwithstanding the philosophy or reasonings behind it are shirkh-blasphemy.Present day Judaism
contains contaminated ideas brought by Ezra that it is now not authentic.
So you base your whole faith around the idea you believe it's "Good" basically. It's better "righteousness" because he holds more steadfast than any other?
But it was written 1400 years ago and Christians have been holding their faith in Jesus the Christ for far longer than that. Muhammad didn't even know Jesus how was he able to write about Jesus or even know who Jesus was? Nor did he ever hear any of the words that Jesus taught. Who made Muhammad better than Jesus, who made Muhammad the "know it all" over the matters of Jesus?
Why wouldn't you take the word of people who was with Jesus day to day on matters of what Jesus did and said? Why would you take the word of a guy who never saw nor heard Jesus? On what authority should I or you even care what Muhammad said about Jesus?
Mr God fear,
You say "Look at it this way, God is a solid steel rod, Jesus (Human) is a bendable wire. Jesus' wire was wrapped around the steel rod and welded to it ."
That is the partnership , Islam rejects this blasphemy.
''so that it could not be bent" implies God needs assistance,He is weak etc.That is blasphemy
No your missing the picture. It's not a partnership, This is God wearing his Humanity so that our human minds can understand what He is doing for us.
A Partnership is in Islam God needing a normal sinful man Muhammad to do his work, and the punch line is ANYONE could of done what Muhammad did. Anyone then, anyone today could do exactly what Muhammad did. There was nothing special about Muhammad.
What was so special about Muhammad, he was a man just like you and was a sinful man. You think in his sinful ways he never did anything wrong? Quoted anything wrong? How could Muhammad be perfect if he was sinful.
Was Muhammad a normal human? As in able to sin? If so, what sins did he commit? What wrong did he do?
Mr Godfear,
Muhammad (pbuh ) special?
Muhammad , Jesus, Solomon, David, Abraham, Lot, (Peace be upon All ) are all faithful servants, prophets and messengers of God almighty.They were humans, absolved from sins,
made errors but were promptly made to rectify.All are special ; Muhammad is special because unlike previous prophets he was sent for all mankind and he is the last and final prophet.
You say "This is God wearing his Humanity so that our human minds can understand what He is doing for us. "
Muslims cannot accept that because it denotes God is weak and not self subsisting.HE is almighty and man seeks HIs help and Bounty, not the opposite.Now you see that we are extremely virgilant against the slightest derogotary remarks against God.We are puritanical
and uncompromising, so to speak.
In what you think is "uncompromising" and whatnot is arrogance you are doing the very same thing the Jews did to Jesus. The Jews rejected Jesus because they didn't understand the OT prophecy they thought Jesus would come as a conquering King but didn't understand that the Messiah would come, if they would of just believed the OT and all the prophecy about Jesus they would of accepted Jesus as the Messiah.
Jesus doesn't make God weak Jesus makes God LOVING! Because God could of just said we are all sinners and to hell you all will go. But he didn't, he said that he loved us so much that he would send a lamb to pay the price of sin in our place should we accept it. John 3:16
I am not your enemy the religion of Islam makes me an enemy because it's a religion of hate and death. Satan is the inventor. Jesus came with a message of forgiveness. Muhammad gave a religion of arrogance and revenge.
Muslims cannot accept what God did as Jesus because they have the blinder of Religion over their eyes. Islam follows a man Muhammad who has no authority and no credentials from God.
It's arrogance not "extreme vigilant" Your problem is with the virgin birth of Jesus, and you reject it because you don't understand it. But if you would accept Jesus as your messiah your spirit would be made alive and it would all make sense to you. But because you have a dead spirit it all seems like foolishness to you.
You think Islam is the only religion that arrogantly rejects Christ? No! The Jews do as well. Don't you get it? You do the very same thing the Jews did/are doing. Your rejecting God!
Mr Godfear,
You say "Jesus fulfilled the Law. Can you not see that? This is what Jesus taught!! "
Verse 5:44
'It was We who revealed the Torah , (to Moses ) therein was guidance and light by its standards have been judged the Jews, by the Prophets who bowed (as in islam ) to God (Allah's ) Will
by the Rabbis and the Doctors of Law, For to them was entrusted the protection of God(Allah's) Book (Torah ) and they were witnesses thereto.
Therefore,fear not men, but fear Me and sell not My signs for a miserable price.If any do fail to judge
by what God (Allah ) hath revealed, they are unbelievers.
Verse 5:45
We ordained therein for them
Life for life, eye for eye,nose for nose ,ear for ear, tooth for tooth and wounds equal forequal
But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself.
And if any fail to judge by what God (Allah ) hath revealed , they are wrong doers.
CONTINUATION
Verse 5:46
And in their footsteps We sent JESUS the son of Mary, CONFIRMING the Torah that had come before him.We sent him the Gospel therein was guidance and the light and confirmation of the Torah that had come before him; a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God (Allah )
Verse 5;47
Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God (Allah ) hath revealed .Therein.If any do fail to judge
by what God (Allah ) hath revealed ,they are those who rebel
Verse 5:48
For thee (Muhammad ), we sent the scripture (Quran ) in truth CONFIRMING the scriptures that came ( the Torah and Gospel ) before it and guarding it………………."
Allah commands Islams to fight for their religion,that is why Iran,Iraq,Malasia,Somalia etc. are fighting against other religions and killing innocent people.Mr.Othman how do you fiil when the churches are put on fire and people are dying in your country (MALASIA) ? What is better, to give them money and sweets in order to know the truth or to put them on fire to force them to trust that Mohammed S.W is a messenger of God?? What is your denomination Mr.Othman??
I wish he would see that, I wish he would see how Islam causes man to hate, reject and do evil. They believe they are standing strong, but they are standing in arrogance against God… Jesus wants these guys to change their mind about him. Because the next time Jesus comes he will come as the King and they are not gonna like what he has to say… 😉
The natural man/woman (with or without religion) can not understand the spiritual.
It is folly to him/her. only the spiritual ones (through Ruach YHWH) can discern the
spiritual.
You can write long or short, but if you haven't experienced YHWH through Jehoshuva,
the indwelling of the Ruach YHWHand the presence of the Kabod YHWH than you
are a spectator trying to comprehend what is going on.
so every denominational christian, jew, muslim, hinduist, buddhist, sikh etc are only
trying to imitate by structurising religion. which can never be a substitute for personal
faith and the personal relationship with YHWH.
Maschiach is semetic, messiah is english version of Kristos (greek) and Christus (latin).
Jeshua was from before the foundation of the world (and was not created as jehovah's
witnesses believe) He is still alive, in contrast to Mosje, Brahman, Buddha or Muhammed.
Too many people have experienced, heard, seen or felt Him throughout the ages,
There are too many proofs historical, archeological, spiritual as well as experiental that
confirms the biblical accounts.
continue
The crucifixion and resurrection of Jehoshuva was confirmed by the report of Pontius Pilate to his superiors.
The oneness/unicity of Yhwh is too far stretched by judaism, islam and certain christian denominations (same goes for dualism, family and trinity theories).
For instance when Yhwh shows his back to Moshe in Shemot (Exodus) 34 ref to 33:23.
do you really think that He ceased for one moment to be YHWH El Shaddai filling all the earth?
or did He become vulnerable showing his back? you can't project human perception on the
Supreme Being, for we are conditioned in the greek way; Is God the Holy Spirit?, yes or no
If He is than it is one, if not than it is two! still the hebrew concept conceived both possibilities.
but encounters difficulties in the human aspects; the appearence of Yhwh in Nephesh form
to Abrahim and others, the King of Righteousness, the Captain of the Host etc.
Greetings Brothers in humanity,
Greetings Mr Christos,It is morning in Malaysia and we have just performed the
first of the obligatory prayers.
You say "For instance when Yhwh shows his back to Moshe in Shemot (Exodus) 34 ref to 33:23."
Quran 7:143
"When Moses came to the palce appointed by Us,
And his Lord addressed him,
He said "O my Lord!
Show (thyself ) to me
That I may look upon Thee
God (Allah ) said: By no means canst thou see Me (direct )
But look upon the mount, if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me,
when his Lord manifested Himself to the Mount, He made it as dust
And Moses fell down in a swoon,
when he recovered his senses he siad ' Glory be to Thee! To thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."
Mr. Othman,
You did not understand; no one has ever seen YHWH.
The people saw representations. one can't behold YHWH and live.
Yeshua was not created, the human form (0-33) was formed.
Yehoshuwa, Ruach, Kabod, Malak, Yah all have always been YHWH.
The major religions are God-obscuring.
quoting scripture is easy, but quoting truth is not.
The verse of the quran is interpretation, many things are restructured from the bible.
All religious scriptures contain errors which can't be detected without the YHWH Ruach.
USA has over 300 million inhabitants, over 70% identify as christians.
90% of the american people believe that there is a God.
The country that has the least non-believers in God (christianity) is Cuba: 7%.
Unofficialy animism is still the worlds most popular religion (over 6 billion).
In Jehoshuva Ha Moschiach people are priest, prophet and apostle.
The claim of the last prophet by islam and mormonism are flawed.
It testifies of poor spiritually and scripturalism. lack of real revelation,
experience, guidance and infilling.
Mr Odwar,
Your statements are defaming, fabrications and lack evidence.There are no such thing as people burned to force them to believe.There are no killings whatsoever.My country has one of the soundest legal and security system in the world.We are not Serbs or Israeli zionists or former Christian crusaders who killed for fun.
Is your sweeping generalised statements a trademark of your evangelical methods?
Whatever killings happening in other countries such as Iran or Somalia or Afgahnistan has to be looked at the causes and circumstances.CNN and US media are unreliable source of information ,They distort and twist to gain credence with the power that controls them.They are not independent at all.
You have a pontification style as evidenced in your dissatisfaction with my reply on denominations .
I have given my answer.period.
My question to you is Mr Pastor, there are 270 million Americans and most of them need guidance on religion.Many are atheists.Why are you focusing your evangelism in Islamic lands? Can''t
match those educated Americans in intellectual discussions?
Are you trying to say Muslims of Islam have not killed Christians?
http://www.gjcn.org/2009/09/somalia-christian-kil… http://www.worthynews.com/8578-breaking-news-gun-…
This is just in the last few weeks.
Ben, most Atheist Americans are just arrogant people who do not wish to follow God's rules. Most of them know there is a God in their Hearts but they want to do worldly things of this earth, sex without marriage, drugs, etc. They do not like the idea of having the Authority of God over them so they rebel. This is nothing new, man has done this for 6000 years since the earth was created.
Mr Godfear,
So it is incumbent upon Godfearing people in US to do the utmost to bring them to Godfearing ways.To do otherwise is shirking responsibilities.
Mr Godfear,
You say "but they are standing in arrogance against God"
Have you seen us prostrate and bowed to God. in our prayers? Is that arrogance?
We do that for a minimum 5 times a day.Dawn.Mid day, afternoon, dusk and night.
We fast for a month.Our fasting is abstaining from food, drinks,sex from dawn to dusk for
30 days Is that arrogance to God?
It is due to our submission to God that we abide with his Commands that Jesus is not God.
As per verses posted previously.
What you take as "submission" to God is by the Bible religious works of man that earn nothing!
All of the works you do, according to the Bible mean absolutely nothing to God. Because it's all based on you trying to earn heaven with your "works". No amount of human works will ever earn God's righteousness because all men are as "filthy rags" sinners and even one single sin wipes out all good works because one sin makes man spiritually dead. This happened with Adam and though adam all people are born spiritual dead.
Unless your spirit is made alive (born again) by faith in Jesus as the messiah because he paid your price for sin, then you will be judged according to your works. No works you can do will ever earn Heaven. You as a man can not stand up to God's Righteousness. Unless you accept Jesus, your spirit is dead.
I think the works you do of bowed to (wrong) god, 5 times a day, fasting (bible calls pointless) for 30 days all extreme arrogance towards God, because you believe you can earn God's righteousness. You believe you can gain righteousness equal to GOD by your WORK! You can not! You have sinned. YOU SIN! I SIN! We can NEVER match God's righteousness!
Yes your works in your religion of Islam is PURE Arrogance and rejection of what God said to man by His Word. The Bible. This is true of ANY RELIGION that uses Works to Earn Heaven. (which all religions on earth do)
Mr Godfear
Mr Godfear,
As mentioned before, the way to heavens is principally based on one's belief–Iman.Believe in One God and Muhammad (pbuh ) is the last prophet.
The righteous deeds are means of submission and they are subsidiary to the beliefs aforementioned.
Mr Godfear,Mr Christos,
You say "Who did you think you was going to come here and convert"
First of all that is NEVER my attention.Through your kind gesture you allowed me to post articles
defending my faith, clarifying misinformation on Islam-moongod etc.
Secondly, I tried to avoid talking on political religion.Political Islam or political Christianity
are human interpretations relating to man to man relationship.It is inevtable that parochial inclinations may seep in.After all we are all humans.
Thirdly, I tried to be as diplomatic as possible but when people like Mr Oduwar are blatantly accusing Islam and sticking to general statements with no concrete evidence, as a human my patience is severely tested.
Fourthly, I think the discussion has fulfilled its purpose i.e to briefly explain what Islam is.
I am sure you have Islamic centers in your respective places and if you want you can contact them for lively healthy discussions.You already know the basics on Islam and how it differs and akin to your faiths.THE CHOICE IS YOURS.
Thank You.
I understand, And no offense is ever taken on my side. I know these things we are both very passionate about.
Actually I would like to take this a bit further and let's study the history. The history in the Bible and the Quran are completely different. I would like to take on some of these aspects and see what comes out of it. A Chance to prove so to speak that the Quran at many times took what the Bible said and twists it.
I'm going to setup a real forum so it will be easier for us to follow what each other posts. I will post here when it's setup for us to use. There we can go in to great detail.
I would like to thank you for being as calm as you can be. I can really push buttons. I believe what I teach and I honestly believe you do as well. I believe it is good for friendly debate.
Thank You
But I will only be free to participate after the Ramadan.For your info, I teach and talk on Islamic economics and banking.See my comments in Daniel Pipes blog when you have time.
Mr Godfear
you say "Again, on what Authority did Muhammad write the Quran"
Muhammad (pbuh ) DID NOT WRITE THE QURAN, HOW COULD HE ?
As stated before Muhammad Sallahu alaihi wassalam , was an illiterate, he could not read nor write.).Jibreel the angel is also a messenger and he delivered the whole messages of the Quran to Muhammad orally.mUHAMMAD (PBUH ) could memorise what was recited to him by Jbreel (Alaihissalam) His companions who could write wrote the verses down,
Thank you, that is my point. Muhammad did not write the Quran.
So now not only do you trust that Muhammad some how knew what he put down was correct, you also trust that every single word was correctly written down by his companions. You see what you are saying is that an Angel told Muhammad, Muhammad told these writers, writers put it down "pen to paper" so to speak. Muhammad at no time was able to visibly check what was put down. So inside this you have a whole system which you have faith wasn't flawed.
So what happens if one of the writers just had hate for Jesus and re-wrote the parts about Jesus to disclaim him. Muhammad would of never been able to check it. What he recited and what they wrote down could of been completely different. The fact is… No one knows but you will have faith that it was the way it said it was. Your whole eternal life is hinged on this. Not very secure in my book.
Not One person in this system of partnerships even knew Jesus, lived with him or understood his teachings.
Mr Godfear
Quran is from God.He created Jesus(pbuh ) and Adam (pbuh ) HIS knowledge on the apostles are told in the Quran.Muhammad who was born 600 years later knew Jesus through God's messages in the Quran.he knew creations of the heavens and earth through the Quran sent to him.
No question on 'hatred " on Jesus.There is a verse on Jesus's family surah Alee Imran and a special surah on Mary-surah Mariam.If you want, you can go through them and you will
discover that instead of hate there is compassion.Many Christians cried when they read that verse,
There is no question of forgery or fraudulent insertion for it is from God and HE decalares that HE will ensure the Quran's authencity.
It is an utmost honour to be created a human being and it is most honourable for a human being to be appointed a Prophet by God Himself. Of course, God will not appoint another God!
It does not matter that Gabriel passed the quran to muhammed (if true/???),
because it does not mean a thing if it is not in accordance with tenach and new testament, than it is hard to prove.
there is no real back up in any way to confirm what was written in the quran.
As written before it seems more like a test in obedience; what is more important
the testimony of an angel or the conviction of the Holy Spirit?
The Holy Spirit is the angel Jibreel
NOTICE!
This conversation would be much better suited in the forums!
http://www.gjcn.org/forums/forum/the-bible-verses…
You will need a GJCN.org account to access them please register here http://www.gjcn.org/login/?action=register
Gabriel can't be the Holy Spirit.
it would be angel worship.
Mr Christos,
John Biddle (1615-1662 )
" He that is distinguished frm God is not God.The Holy Spirit is distiguished from God, therefore he is not God "
Mr. Othman,
You can't distinguish the manifestations of YHWH.
which are all YHWH's, too many people have a spiritual perception problem
If Gabriel is the Holy Spirit, than you don't know the Ruach YHWH
and never experienced its working, gifts and guidance.
An Archangel can't be the Ruach YHWH and you can't worship YHWH
without the Ruach, thus you don't worship YHWH but something else.
Mr Christos,
Muslims do have spiritual experience.For in Islam there is spiritual (Ruh ) as well practical rituals in our relationship with Allah – the One God.We are what God called the"moderate middle community " not extremely crass materialistic judaism of ezra or the extremely ascetic and spiritual mode of Pauline Christianity.
That moderate combinations is based on the foundation of unicity of God.Ruh Qudus is Jibreel (pbuh ) a messenger of God ,Jesus (pbuh ) a messenger of God and Muhammad (pbuh ) the last messenger of God, and Quran the final Testament.